We know desire cause all kinds of troubles, attachment, wanting, feelings of lack, wanting to force things and make them happen, anger jealousy, etc. So we give them up, perhaps suppress them, perhaps replace them through hopefully partially healing blissful practice.
Yet, even the desire to practice is attachment. Don't we need desire to become the Buddha? Don't we need desire to become even empty?
Where does the term "longing" fit in? Is t not normal in our evolutionary journey to long for a higher spiritual awakening... and is that longing not also a desire?
How do you deal with desire? Can you meditate them away or replace them with some bliss? Is it ok potentially to attach to our own Buddha-nature?
Who of you is beyond desire and how did you do it, let me know? - so many questions here.... just pick one of them. :-) - thank you, dear ones.
Yet, even the desire to practice is attachment. Don't we need desire to become the Buddha? Don't we need desire to become even empty?
Where does the term "longing" fit in? Is t not normal in our evolutionary journey to long for a higher spiritual awakening... and is that longing not also a desire?
How do you deal with desire? Can you meditate them away or replace them with some bliss? Is it ok potentially to attach to our own Buddha-nature?
Who of you is beyond desire and how did you do it, let me know? - so many questions here.... just pick one of them. :-) - thank you, dear ones.
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Re: How do we creatively work with desires?
Sat, March 1, 2008 - 12:05 PMYou can't give up desire or suppress desire or replace desire...that too is desire.
"Don't we need desire to become the Buddha?"
No.
"Don't we need desire to become even empty?"
No.
"Is t not normal in our evolutionary journey to long for a higher spiritual awakening... and is that longing not also a desire?"
Yes, longing is also a desire. It might be normal to long for higher spiritual awakening, but in the end this longing is one of the obstacles.
"How do you deal with desire? Can you meditate them away or replace them with some bliss? Is it ok potentially to attach to our own Buddha-nature? "
Let go of desire as much as you are able...and then realize your own Buddha-nature already is present. Are you attached to your heart or eye? It may sound funny because they are so close and always present that the idea becoming attached to them sounds funny. Only things that are acquired and are further away do we become attached. Buddha-nature is always present and even closer.
"Who of you is beyond desire and how did you do it, let me know?"
There is no "I" that can do it. Only by realizing your essential nature does desire leave you.
Namaste,
~ Eric Putkonen
www.awaken2life.org
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Re: How do we creatively work with desires?
Sat, March 1, 2008 - 3:05 PMYour questions are poetry, as anyone who truly reflects upon what you've written will at least for the moment be transformed - including yourself. The consideration of your questions is the answer to your questions.
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Re: How do we creatively work with desires?
Sun, March 2, 2008 - 2:49 AMThere is nothing wrong with desire in and of itself. Suffering is attached to the misuse of desire. For example, desiring what cannot be and aversion to what is.
If you are hungry and want to eat, you then eat and go on your way that is the natural functioning of your mind.
If you are hungry, spend your time wishing you had something else and complaining that what you have is no good and then after you are done you go on thinking about how it could have been a better meal if only...; that is suffering.
A common approach to getting a grip on things so the first doesn't slide into the second is paying attention to your desires and aversions so you know them for what they are and can see how they rise, fall, attach and detach and how your thoughts influence them. -
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Re: How do we creatively work with desires?
Sun, March 2, 2008 - 7:56 AMNicely put. Desire is necessary up to a point (e.g., desire for well-being—you have to get off your duff and go to work to support your family if you're a householder), just as a minimally-functional ego is, to be able to function in the world (i.e., interact with other beings on a day-to-day level). The critical point is how the desire/ego is actualized. To be aware during that instant before acting and make the best choice for all beings while not attaching to it. Next best thing to being on the cushion, zen-wise! -
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Re: How do we creatively work with desires?
Sun, March 2, 2008 - 10:04 AMresponding within the text of original post...
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<We know desire cause all kinds of troubles, attachment, wanting, feelings of lack, wanting to force things and make them happen, anger jealousy, etc. So we give them up, perhaps suppress them, perhaps replace them through hopefully partially healing blissful practice.>
Desire can be directed and can be transformed. If we want to conquer and diminish others, we can learn to direct that kind of ignorance into striving to better ourselves. Lust can be directed (to some degree) to a desire for bodily purity (as in striving to run a marathon, become a proficient in Hatha Yoga and just generally direct "the body's" interests in directions we find more positive). Greed can be directed into a kind of positive ambition. Instead of being "ambitious" to lord our will over everyone, we can be "ambitious" to give the most, help the most, care the most, etc. etc. etc.
<Yet, even the desire to practice is attachment. Don't we need desire to become the Buddha?>
The questions is valid, but some take it to be some kind of intellectual game. This question was answered in various ways, by many spiritual teachers. The answer is basically, yes, you need to desire to move. Without movement, there is no progress. Without progress, there is no Enlightenment. People may think they can be fat lazy blobs lying on the sofa and become realized, but it is not the case.
To this end, I believe it was Joshu who said something like blankness is not emptiness.
Christ said, "if the salt loses its seasoning, how shall it then be seasoned?"
Thomas Merton said, "too much austerity makes a stone of the heart"
St. Theresa of Avila discussed that contemplatives need, at time to take "recreation."
Sri Krishna said, I (God) am desire unopposed to dharma.
So, there is desire which is destructive and then there is dynamism. They may seem to be the same thing, but they are not. One is productive and illuminating. One is self-absorbed, narcissistic and living in self-induced delusion. They said of General McArthur, that he was so consumed with his own ego that he actually began to believe that his personal desires were necessarily the truth.
Don't we need desire to become even empty?
Where does the term "longing" fit in? Is t not normal in our evolutionary journey to long for a higher spiritual awakening... and is that longing not also a desire?
<How do you deal with desire?>
The short answer is by practicing the path...in all its aspects. Desire does not drop away easily. It slowly gets transformed into a higher and better direction, by degrees. There are supposed to be some very advanced states where desire ceases, but I am not familiar with them.
<Can you meditate them away or replace them with some bliss?>
Yes, as above, they slowly get replaced with spiritual things. But they do so by degrees. Bliss is a very very high state. They usually get replaced with just a kind of enthusiastic joy, as opposed to some kind of obsessive craving. That is a very very positive step.
<Is it ok potentially to attach to our own Buddha-nature?>
Not sure what you mean. If you mean, can we become obsessive about spirituality? Sri Ramakrishna said something like...to remove a thorn, first we take another thorn, then pry out the first thorn. Then both can be thrown away. He said that in regards to using tamas, let us say, to drive out ignorance. Or, that the thorn was japa....which, when fully manifested, realizes the goal. Then japa, as a thorn, is no longer necessary. Or, in more basic level. First we spiritualize our desires, using that force to carry us with aspiration toward our goal. Then, I guess, when the goal is reached, the desires are no longer necessary? My best guess. I am not at the point of no desires, so I don't know.
<Who of you is beyond desire and how did you do it, let me know?>
Supposedly, only fully perfected beings get to that state. I have heard that at any time, there are perhaps 10 or 12 such people on the planet. -
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Re: How do we creatively work with desires?
Sun, March 2, 2008 - 10:19 AMsorry missed a question or two there:
<Don't we need desire to become even empty?>
Yes, as above...we have to move. to move, you have to want to move. Then, eventually, even though you are moving, you have no attachments to what you are doing. Everything becomes purified. In that sense, you no longer "want" - you just do.
<Where does the term "longing" fit in? Is t not normal in our evolutionary journey to long for a higher spiritual awakening... and is that longing not also a desire?>
Longing for spirituality may "technically" mean "desire" in the English language, but that is not what is meant. People can take some writing and twist it any way they want...making Hitler look wonderful and Lincoln look like a liar. But that is just clever spin, doesn't mean it has any validity.
Spiritual longing is not desire, it has nothing to do with desire, even if the English word for it seems to fit.
If you see a person suffering on the street and want to help, that is one thing. You can call it desire all you want, but it is a far different thing, in every which way, than the feeling you get about wanting to eat an ice cream, or wanting to make a lot of money, or then into the really destructive desires, like wanting to humiliate or harm others. They are entirely different things.
A 5 year old can do some finger painting. It is hardly the same thing as what Jackson Pollock did, even if a jaded mind wants to think that way.
Spiritual longing is born from the spiritual heart, its source is not the greed of the body and its desires. Shakespeare's Caliban in the Tempest is a kind of personification of the body and its desires....always unhappy and grumbling. Miranada, the heart, is not Caliban. They are distinct.
One person desires to create art because it comes from their soul and they are inspired by an inner world of beauty. Another simply wants to scam others and make money. The folks who tend to want to scam others and make money off of others, tend to think that everyone else thinks and feels that way. So, they have never really experienced a real spiritual calling, because they are so consumed in the low world of ignorance and desires. So when they see other people aspiring for higher truth, they mock it, because they have no direct experience of it themselves.
Those people equate their desire to compete and conquer others as the aspirations for beauty and love for others, that spiritual people have. They are very distinct things. The "desire" to find self-control and conquer an addiction, is not a desire, even if the word is used.
The desire to become more spiritual and see great beauty and feel great compassion, is hardly a desire, just because the word is used.
The better way to phrase it is that spiritual longing is "aspiration" and longing for a kind of selfish pleasure is "desire."
But again, we don't really have to worry about it all so much. We just practice the path and let our daily meditation and spiritual disciplines do the work, slowly, over time.
We can not, by hook or by crook..... or even by force, end desire. It must come to us naturally and spontaneously, by the slow evolution of our spiritual journey.
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Re: How do we creatively work with desires?
Tue, March 11, 2008 - 12:11 AMHi Maya,
Good question...and you hit it on the head already, I believe.
There is desire to get rid of desire. There is the desire to be enlightened, and so forth, as you pointed out.
How to parse this conundrum?
In Zen practice, there is nothing to be rid of that is not delusion to begin with.
But every phenomena that exists, and all conditions(desire) are in co-relation with the Absolute,
or Ku, as it's referred to in Zen. Ku loosely translated means, Nothingness.
But this "nothingness" is one and the same as phenomena, not separate from it. Noumenon and phenomenon are the same.
It is our mind consciousness that discriminates between the two and sees the world in dualistic terms, or the particulars and distinctions we view within phenomena. That part of our consciousness wants to attach to concepts like "Good and bad", "desire and non-desire"(passionlessness), as if it is the Truth. But in Ku, there is not One, nor is there Two. This is an even deeper Truth.
It is a state of mind, and our mind creates everything, including the world of phenomena and conditions such as desire or lack thereof.
Our mind creates both the concept of desire and the concept of the lack of desire.
If the world of Phenomena is the same as the world of Ku, then the passions of mind that come with being a human being, the conditions
that go along with being a human in the realm of phenomena, are the same for a so-called Enlightened being also. An enlightened being has desires to. The difference in their mind state though, through the awakening of prajna wisdom, is that an enlightened person is not attached one way or another. For example, Sex(desire) is okay, and no sex(no desire) is okay too. Being able to live like this in the world is complete freedom.
If we are not attached to the outcome of a situation, we will suffer less.
Therefore, in Zen, Enlightenment(nothingness) is Delusion(phenomena), and Delusion is Enlightenment. "Form is emptiness and emptiness is form". We can go through life attaching meaning to desire, or no meaning to desire. We can just as well live life attached to the concept of Enlightenment. We can live life cutting off desires, in the mind-state of negation, or we can live life with desire present, with the mind-state of Affirmation. Knowing this prajna wisdom, we can now work "creatively" with desire. Do you have a desire to pursue a spiritual path? If the answer is yes, then you are in affirmation of desire. Do you have a desire to hate, kill, and promote suffering to other beings? If the answer is yes again, then you are also in affirmation. But in following that particular path, there will be dire consequences to your actions. We are free to cut off(negate), or allow(affirm) as we wish. It is a choice we all can make, and it shows our state of mind. In Buddhism, The Four Noble Vows, The Precepts, and The Eight Fold Path, act as guidelines to affirm or negate conditions such as desire in such a way that it causes no harm to other beings and ourselves(this include nature and animals). Some of these are difficult choices. I may be a vegetarian, but I wear shoes made out of leather hide from a dead animal. Because I desire to wear shoes, I have contributed to some animals death. Because I fell in love full of desire for another man's wife, I caused suffering, and so on. So, each condition that arises in life, desire being only one, anger is another, greed is another, can be viewed with the wisdom of prajna present, and each condition may be treated according to one's circumstance and state of mind.
I believe the "creative" manner in which we work with desire is a reflection of this mind-state.
John
