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Reincarnation and impermanence

topic posted Wed, April 23, 2008 - 1:10 PM by  joe
Can someone explain how reincarnation fits into impermanence, and maybe a resource i can read up on this exact question. thank you
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joe
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  • Od
    Od
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    Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

    Wed, April 23, 2008 - 7:54 PM

    For starters:

    www.thebigview.com/buddhism/karma.html
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    • Leslie
      Leslie
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      Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

      Wed, April 23, 2008 - 8:38 PM
      Reincarnation IS, the spirit continues beyond death, and those Buddhists who insist there is no soul are probably biological portals who have habitually sought annihilation life after life, rather than spiritual growth. In other words.... a large portion of the people in this world appear to come out of "fallen" spirituality in which all of the subtle bodies and continuity of consciousness have been subverted by abuse of free-will and lifetimes of subservience to overlords and hive-mindedness. Another term for this might apply to some degree, and that would be "hungry ghosts". We live among them. Yet, don't allow them to tell you that Buddhism tells us there is no real reincarnation of self. Bullcrappiesmack. I lucidly recall Many, Many past lives.... and a Continuum of spiritual transformations between and connecting physical incarnations. This Consciousness doing that being that. I am a Bodhisattva reincarnate, but I'm not supposed to discuss this in this tribe, yet the topic comes up and I throw in my defense of the true scope of the Dharma (as opposed to philosophical contrivances that appear to be particular to hungry ghosts incarnate who seek refuge in certain versions of the Dharma that may apply only to their own path).
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      • Jon
        Jon
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        Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

        Wed, April 23, 2008 - 10:31 PM
        well, reincarnation is the process through which the soul is re-born. That is more about permanence, than impermanence, since it helps to reinforce the reality that the soul lives forever and nothing really dies.

        However, one can look at the entire cycle of re-brith as a limited reality. That until we attain moksha, we are bound to be re-born and are not ultimately free. In that sense, the cycle of reincarnation is a limited reality....and ultimately one that will cease for the rare individual spiritually developed enough to be liberated from all ignorance, sin and desire.
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      • Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

        Wed, April 23, 2008 - 10:33 PM
        Leslie - you seem to be dividing Buddhists up into two groups, broken down biological slabs of meat - those hungry ghosts, and those who have seen the light and embrace and promote the concept of their unbroken spiritual thread from vehicle to vehicle. Am I correct here? How do you account for what seems (from past discussions in this tribe) to be such a high percentage Buddhist meat puppies? I find it rather amusing that so many people of the hive-minded type disposition would seek refuge under the cloak of Buddhism. Do you have an explanation for this?
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        • Leslie
          Leslie
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          Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

          Wed, April 23, 2008 - 10:51 PM
          Consciousness naturally seeks Continuity..... unless it is subjected to serious traumatization, which is a consequence of being stuck in a physical reality in which Samsaric conditions prevail. This universe has a long, traumatic history, which I happen to have considerable experience with. There are huge numbers of fallen spirits who have chosen to abdicate their spiritual awarenesses in the face of monstrous horrors and enslavements..... and what thread of consciousness (from those lives past) has endured through this... is now seeking to find peace and balance.... and a measure of something resembling enlightenment as far as this may be possible for them. The actual explanation is far longer and more complicated than this, but that would be a truncated version, as I've been met with derision and veiled intellectual tantrums (hungry ghost symptoms) when enumerating these things to such a mixed crowd in previous efforts.
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        • Jon
          Jon
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          Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

          Wed, April 23, 2008 - 10:51 PM
          I agree Leslie, I just don't know why people fight so hard against the existence of an Infinite, omniscient, omnipotent and eternal soul.

          What is the point? To be more comfortable that our extremely limited human existence is it?

          No matter how many people testify that they have had contact with this Infinite reality, people just can't seem to handle, that others have had experiences they haven't had.

          You would think people would offer those folks respect and try to learn, rather than fight them.
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          • Leslie
            Leslie
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            Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

            Wed, April 23, 2008 - 11:19 PM
            It's quite an insideous psychospiritual syndrome. Some may have risen to great awarenesses in previous universes.... and volunteered to go into deep darkness in the inception of this universe.... not realizing just how profoundly, devastatingly dark their existence would become. They completely lost their way and sense of being and purpose. All they could salvage was the rational mind... as that is the province and purpose of the dark mission..... to bring Physicality into its full potential.... which is a Rational and technological process in which spirituality may be long forgotten and of little use. When beings in possession of awake light bodies and continuities of awareness present themselves.... it can be painful to realize how far one is removed from such a state. Yet I am among those who also have well-developed dark energies.... not to mention the kind of greyness of neutral energetics.... so I live in a fairly psychedelic state of being in which I am able to walk in many worlds. But that, in itself, is a challenge..... yet everyone has to master themselves, as well as relate to others..... and the dynamics of that takes intestinal fortitude... (which I find through the resource of living foods diet and creative consciousness).
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            • Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

              Wed, April 23, 2008 - 11:34 PM
              In a sense, though, Leslie, you seem to be saying you've been shaped by the past, or maybe more accurately - shaped by experience. And I'd assume at least to some extent that you'd agree that all of us have been shaped by experience, and whether the experience has transpired in this current life or those past or in the future - it appears that we're working from an experiential base, which dictates what we perceive, how we experience and how we act, and how we will act in the future.
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              • Leslie
                Leslie
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                Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

                Wed, April 23, 2008 - 11:43 PM
                Yes, Charles. Working from an actual experiential basis, on whatever scale and context one is able to do so, is quite preferable to any overdependence upon systematic knowledge formulas that are easily premanipulated and adulterated towards the diminishment of one's own sense of purposeful evolvement.
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                • Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

                  Wed, April 23, 2008 - 11:56 PM
                  It seems obvious that one is going to operate from whatever context and scale they're capable at a given moment. The question is more of the capability or an illusion of the capability that one can act intentionally. Can one really act without the pre-manipulation to which you refer? Or is the pre or post-manipulation but the echo of our actual experience superimposed on the moment?
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          • Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

            Wed, April 23, 2008 - 11:24 PM
            Jon, seems in general that people are more interested in reinforcing their current beliefs than adopting new ones. Even when people claim to be open-minded, it is to their particular flavor of open-mindedness. It takes a pretty swift unexpected kick in the pants to enable someone to begin to see in a new way.
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  • Swarm
    Swarm
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    Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

    Thu, April 24, 2008 - 5:37 AM
    Impermanence along with suffering and no soul (anicca, dukha and anatta) are the three universal characteristics of existence, (tilakkhana).

    Reincarnation was later tacked on to appease people who were suffering about impermanence and no soul. As you might suspect, reincarnation is mighty attractive to many people, but it can't coexist with impermanence and no soul, but man you should see how people try to dodge that little quandary.

    Resolve your issues of this life in this life and if Mr. B happens to have been wrong you can be pleasantly surprised.
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    • Leslie
      Leslie
      online 89

      Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

      Thu, April 24, 2008 - 8:22 AM
      Qualities like Compasssion, Wisdom, and these combined to form 'Creative Consciousness' is the means whereby we can leverage ourselves out of predetermination and the like.
      Reincarnation is an "always" that underlies such things as the Dharma, which is partly (as most familiarly known) a set of observations from one man's perspective,.... combined with the works of other Buddhist beings. That there are humanoids with no sense of self, or much of what can be seen as a soul, is a consequence that some suffer in this creation. For them, the interpretation of 'the dharma' as given in this tribe may have relevance, yet this is far, far removed from the larger picture or the Greater Dharma as taught by the many other enlightened ones.
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      • orpheus
        orpheus
        online 140

        Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

        Thu, April 24, 2008 - 8:37 AM
        so how does that impact on chicks and cashflow...?
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        • Dr. ...
          Dr. Awkward
          online 27

          Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

          Thu, April 24, 2008 - 11:31 AM
          Yes, Orph, Buddhism is all about chicks and cash-flow. Impermanence is when the cash-flow runs out. Suffering is when you learn that the chicks are all either pregnant or transvestites. You are truly an enlightened being.
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          • orpheus
            orpheus
            online 140

            Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

            Thu, April 24, 2008 - 11:38 AM
            so how come buddha invented so much unenlightenment...?

            oh well it's not long until 2012 so maybe I'll get to ask him in person...
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            • Dr. ...
              Dr. Awkward
              online 27

              Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

              Thu, April 24, 2008 - 11:44 AM
              Look, Buddha's teachings are like the Kabbalah in reverse. The Kabbalah uses sex as a metaphor for spirituality. In Buddha's teachings, however, all that talk about celibacy and wisdom was all one big sexual metaphor. You really should get a qualified teacher to help you interpret it. Or better yet, use your Consciousness and Buddhanature, if you know what I mean. ~Wink, wink~
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            • Swarm
              Swarm
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              Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

              Thu, April 24, 2008 - 6:20 PM
              or: so how come buddha invented so much unenlightenment...?

              No one had to invent ignorance.
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              • Dr. ...
                Dr. Awkward
                online 27

                Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

                Thu, April 24, 2008 - 7:15 PM
                Then why does Eckhart Tolle have such a living~?
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                • Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

                  Thu, April 24, 2008 - 11:46 PM
                  Seems that as long as I can remember (and it's been a while now;-)) there's always been someone or maybe a few at the forefront that have catered to the spiritual needs of the masses. They come into focus for a while then fade, allowing space for others to take their place. I sometimes think it has more to do with a person being at the right place at the right time rather than what they actually have to say - like fruit ripening on a tree; there's always one piece that's just perfect - through no effort of its own.
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                    orpheus
                    orpheus
                    online 140

                    Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

                    Fri, April 25, 2008 - 5:24 AM
                    demographic percentages...?

                    so like for every 100 million fruity tolle types one will manifest as a new age guru regardless of effort and verbal output...

                    that kind of sounds reasonable...
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                    • Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

                      Fri, April 25, 2008 - 10:46 AM
                      A person with the right tools at the right place at the right time simply emerges. There just there - it's not like they had anything so say about it. The same for those who follow.

                      Like you're here on the Buddhism tribe teaching me. You can't say that either of us planned this or had any involvement in setting this up. It's just happening.
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                • Re: Reincarnation and impermanence

                  Sat, April 26, 2008 - 12:20 AM
                  with horseshit phrases like "awakening to your life's true purpose," you're bound to sell books. just ask deepak about marketable titles, he's got it down pat. both seem like sick suburban watered down fake sunbeams of alienated wealth spewing treacle for airport lounge reading, but i'd have to read more to really say what i feel.
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                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Swarm
                    Swarm
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