I am just posting a pointer to an intereting thread on nonduality in Buddhism. It is going on in the Tibetan Buddhim tribe and can be found here: tibetanbuddhism.tribe.net/threa...a80205
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Re: Nonduality in Buddhism (pointer)
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 5:13 PMMost discussions of non/duality are pointless semantic disagreements since it is the experience of non duality which is the point in Buddhism, not the discussion of it. Of course those discussions can be entertaining precisely because they aren't usually resolvable.
Personally I like the description offered by some dead zen guys...not one, not two. -
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"Most discussions of non/duality are pointless semantic disagreements "
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 6:40 AMMaybe they are..or maybe they're not.
;-P -
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Re: "Most discussions of non/duality are pointless semantic disagreements "
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 3:05 PMthanks for sharing that thread with us
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Re: Nonduality in Buddhism (pointer)
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 5:07 PMIs nonduality different from duality? -
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Re: yes or no
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 12:06 PMSo... "both yes and no," but not "either yes or no." Is that right? -
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Re: yes or no
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 2:32 PMThat's better... mind yer manners, young'un.
Now, back to this nonduality stuff. As I see it, anything that is defined as non-"something else" is inherently dualistic. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
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Re: yes or no
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 2:48 PMis form dependent on it's relation to space as the absence of form...?
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
"anything that is defined as non-"something else" is inherently dualistic. "
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 2:57 PMHow very black and white of you. -
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Re: "anything that is defined as non-"something else" is inherently dualistic. "
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 3:02 PM"Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." -
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Re: "anything that is defined as non-"something else" is inherently dualistic. "
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 3:04 PMwhat is the sound of one hand mouthing gobshite...? -
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Re: "anything that is defined as non-"something else" is inherently dualistic. "
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 3:08 PM*clap-clap* -
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Re: "anything that is defined as non-"something else" is inherently dualistic. "
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 3:40 PMPerhaps it would be clearer using other words?
Is soft black or white?
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Re: "anything that is defined as non-"something else" is inherently dualistic. "
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 3:48 PM -
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Re: "anything that is defined as non-"something else" is inherently dualistic. "
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 5:20 PMhihihihi Orpheus ... I InjOyed that ....
Language can not experience non-dual ... Non dual can not be accessed through language... Hence, we communicate through language ... and thus ... often mis ... the ONEness of it all. It like trying to argue with an individual experience. Eric has a podcast about it if you are really interested. 'nough said.... B it.
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""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 4:39 PMIndeed yet gray is neither black nor white, it is non-white and non-black, it connotes a state of greater than 2 hues thus not two, non-dual. -
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 5:15 PMSo, if gray is non-black-or-white, you have two states:
(1) black-or-white
(2) non-black-or-white (i.e., gray)
Hence, duality. -
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So, if gray is non-black-or-white, you have two states
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 6:03 PMQuite binomial. and yet there are more numbers in math than one and zero.
One might say there is
1] one or zero
2] non one or zero
Though we are able to further our understanding of quanta and many things in literal or theoretical existence by giving more creedence to the range of other vlaues and the nuances within each.
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 5:49 AMSo what od is saying is there are two kinds of people, those who can can be split into two kinds and those who can't. -
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 8:14 AMPretty much... Anyway you slice it, duality is in the picture... and so is nonduality.
In fact, duality and nonduality are inseparable -- you can't have one without the other.
Duality exists only where it arises within the field of nonduality.
Nonduality exists only as the field that gives rise to duality.
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 8:34 AM -
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 9:35 AMThis is really very simple. Try as you may to transcend your duality, wherever you go -- there you are! ...duality and all! -
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 10:26 AMbut I don't go anywhere...
though I'd love to get out of here...
it's not about me it's about those other eejits...
you see I'm not a duality I'm a minority...
just a singularity lost in an idiocracy...
and it's all a big mistake...
I shouldn't be here...
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 2:51 PMod: Try as you may to transcend your duality, wherever you go -- there you are! ...duality and all!
Transcending something doesn't mean negating it. If it is actually there, it is actually there.
The duality you describe is a property of how you think and not a property of what you are thinking about. Fail to over simplify and it goes away of its own accord. -
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 5:09 PM
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
-- The Dhammapada -
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 6:02 PMYes, figurative speech is fun as long as you don't try to take it literally.
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 6:03 PM"The duality you describe is a property of how you think and not a property of what you are thinking about."
I'm with ya.
"...it goes away of its own accord."
Are you saying that the experience of the duality disappears? And it may yet the focus of awareness is always somewhere, and as long as the process continues do you think it is possible to experience a state wholly devoid of any form of duality, or do you think it more of a matter of degree?
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 6:17 PMDuality isn't an experience, it is a conception about experiences and thus requires consideration to produce it.
If you don't conceptualize the experience dualisticly, it isn't there.
Or as some dead zen guy said, just stop choosing one thing over the other. -
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 6:51 PM
Duality is inherent in perceptual experience. Only in the differentiation of the perceptual field do we perceive anything at all.
zenmonkeys.tribe.net/photos/...9237727f -
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 7:34 PMod: Duality is inherent in perceptual experience
I disagree. The actual perception is non dual. It is only in the consideration of the perception that duality arises. This is why in fast moving things like fighting the goal is a union of perception and action. There is no time to consider. -
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 8:19 PM
The nonduality you describe is a property of how you think and not a property of what you are thinking about. -
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 10:12 PMso there is me...
and there is the totality of stuff that is out to negate me...
which includes the stuff I am composed of...
which wouldn't be so bad...
if it were not so... -
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 2:49 AM -
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Dhamma and Non-duality
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 5:01 AM
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 8:59 AMWhoaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Orpheus .... Great, thanks for Posting .... (((((((((((((Butterfly Hugs))))))))))))))))))
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 6:12 AMod: ...
Nice misquote, but it doesn't shake out that way. -
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 6:49 AM
Always a pleasure to agree to disagree with you, Swarm.
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Sat, May 10, 2008 - 9:46 AM>The actual perception is non dual.
A problem that seems to arise frequently in these types of discussions is that there are many types of "duality" that are conflated. One of the most basic (and I suspect the one most often referred to) is subject-object duality. A careful epistemic inquiry of this reveals that there is no inherent separation between the cognizing consciousness and that which is cognized. The supposed “duality” is a contingent artifact, a mere epiphenomenona of the –way- in which we cognize perception not something inherent to it.
As useful as such analysis can be, it is a poor substitute for actually obtaining a glimpse of nondual gnosis (advaya-jnana). As ephemeral and tainted by subtle vasana as this "experience" may be, it can create a level of conviction that knowledge based on mere pramana lacks.
Another, interesting "experience" which (if reflected upon) is likely to cause a reorientation in the way one conceives of “mind” and duality is that of basic cognizance in the absence of specific content. An example of this would be the apprehension of the prabhasvaracitta while in deep dreamless sleep or during specialized yogic methodologies like candali-yoga. Once one has recognized basic-cognizance apart from cognized epiphenomenona, one can establish a different mode of relating to mental events that is far less dualistic.
Or so it would seem to me,
Ryan -
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Re: ""Non-" is black and white. Maybe you should call it "maybe-duality." "
Sat, May 10, 2008 - 4:38 PMSo we basically seem in agreement.
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