$19M Mandir

topic posted Mon, February 25, 2008 - 8:56 PM by 
Forgive me the crosspost, and the somewhat off-topic nature of the post.

It's almost old news, but I wrote a rant on the construction of a $19M temple that was built here in Georgia. I got it published in a local magazine, who ran it as a point/counterpoint with views presented by the temple themselves. Here's the link to both pieces (complete with typos), if you're into this kind of thing:

tinyurl.com/2okc3e

I am somewhat intrigued and satisfied by the temple's response. The temple writers got to read my piece before writing theirs, and I think it’s obvious they did. :-)

They include an email address at the bottom for comments, and I hope you'll write in with whatever reaction you may have.
posted by:
  • Re: $19M Mandir

    Tue, February 26, 2008 - 1:31 PM
    I think this is an interesting issue....not just in this specific case, but generally.

    Christ answered it, directly. They were anointing his feet with perfumed oil (?) and someone mentioned that they should spend the money on some pragmatic need, like for the poor. Christ replied that "the bridegroom" would be with them for only a short time...or some such response.

    Basically giving the spiritual answer that spending money to honor God or spirituality by the construction of something elaborate is not a waste of money.

    I don't know a reference for a Buddhist source on this, so I included the Christian one.

    I think, like anything else, it is about balance. I think the world is much better off for all of the beautiful temples, the huge statues of Buddha and etc. To honor something through the expenditure of money may not be the absolute most spiritual choice, but I think, generally, it is a reasonable one.

    Even just from an aesthetic point of view, from the standpoint of art and architecture, beautiful structures add so much to society. And in a Feng Shui sense, visual beauty does help create inner peace. So there is that aspect as well.

    Of course, if you are talking about outright fraud and scams like those conducting by Jim Baker and the various wackos out there...of course that is horrible.

    But, generally, I think it is a reasonable way to honor our love for spirituality.

    I love all the temples, visually.....Jewish, Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu....I think they are all very beautiful.

    peace, love and light to everyone,

    Jon
    • Re: $19M Mandir

      Tue, February 26, 2008 - 5:50 PM
      I disagree that any construction project actually honors any deity. Construction is there to glorify the builder and patrons.

      Glorious buddhist construction is an oxymoron, but it keeps the monks out of trouble while they try to out glorify each other.

      That said, it is their money and this is a way to get it back in circulation instead of wasting away in their coffers. Hiring people to do construction *is* helping the poor.
  • Re: $19M Mandir

    Tue, March 18, 2008 - 12:21 PM
    The organization that built the Temple in question has a very strong track record with respect to social service work and other good causes - everything from advocating basic feminist issues in India to recycling aluminum cans and planting trees. Here is their website:
    www.swaminarayan.org/activit...ndex.htm

    Also, the $19M pricetag should be viewed in the proper context. First of all the money was raised from thousands of contributors over a period of more than 20 years - in other words much or the money was raised by people donating insignificant amounts of money, the type of money we thoughtlessly spend on soft-drinks and chewing gum. Second, much of the labor for the Temple, including most of the beautiful stone carving, was done by volunteers - so it didn't cost anything. Third of all the Temple is very beautiful and religious architecture of this kind is a perfectly legitimate form of art, and one that is not cheap!

    Here is an NPR story about the Temple complete with pics:
    www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php

    And for those philistines who get their panties in a bunch over religious artwork, and religious architecture in particular - this wikipedia page on religious architecture is very educational:
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reli...chitecture
    • Re: $19M Mandir

      Tue, March 18, 2008 - 8:48 PM
      *yawn*

      None of this changes the assertion that one could, in good conscience, feed a lot of hungry people with $19M. Or even build public restroom facilities for the ancient Hindu temples in India which are currently being defiled with human waste for the want of better infrastructure.

      We don't need more temples. We don't need more churches. Peace of mind shouldn't have a price tag, and the money people spend in that alleged pursuit is a slap in the face to those who can't meet their own basic needs.
      • Re: $19M Mandir

        Wed, March 19, 2008 - 6:18 AM
        mi: the money people spend in that alleged pursuit is a slap in the face to those who can't meet their own basic needs.

        No less than the opulence you personally live in.

        It is their money. Are you willing to submit to what you seem to be asking of them?

        How many homeless could you be housing and feeding with your own excess?
      • Re: $19M Mandir

        Wed, March 19, 2008 - 6:40 AM
        *yawn*

        So much for the brother's keeper.

        Mickey, you are getting boring ;-)
        • Simply Put

          Wed, March 19, 2008 - 11:20 AM
          Art is a part of our lives.

          Consciously spending $19M on art instead of feeding people is not compassionate toward the starving.

          Was it conscious?
          • Re: Simply Put

            Thu, March 20, 2008 - 8:57 AM
            >> Consciously spending $19M on art instead of feeding people is not compassionate toward the starving. <<

            Simply put: one can do both. In fact, one should do both. That which nourishes the soul should not be counterposed to that which nourishes the body.

            Poor people enjoy beauty, art, music, too. It is food for the soul.

            Also, the people who raised the money for the Temple were simultaneously involved in:

            bulding and running hospitals, clinics, mobile diagnostic camps, and drug dispensaries
            funding scholarships for thousands of students
            recycling and solar energy projects
            supporting the anti-dowry campaign in India
            disaster relief efforts
            drug counseling

            To name just a few things they have done.
            • Imagine how much more of that they could have accomplished had they made a humble temple and put the rest toward bulding and running hospitals, clinics, mobile diagnostic camps, and drug dispensaries, funding scholarships for thousands of students, recycling and solar energy projects, supporting the anti-dowry campaign in India, disaster relief efforts, drug counseling.

              Speaking as an artist I can tell you that such creation does not require money. Art from the people, often called 'folk art' in fact tends to be the least effort and holds a great deal of soul.
              • to look at people who are building hospitals and so forth and then criticize them for not building more hospitals is just bullshit.

                how many fucking hospitals have you built?
                • "how many (oops) hospitals have you built? "

                  Fri, March 21, 2008 - 8:08 AM
                  None. I have worked in them though.

                  I have also saved forests, homes, and lives. I have literally started hearts beating again, volunteered my own time to counsel and listen to those who have been wholly rejected by their families and communities, fostered community that continues in places where others insisted it was impossible. I do send money to an organization that fights for women specific human rights (like fighting honor killings and female circumcisions) as well as another that educates the public and medical community on vestibular dysfunction. All this while existing well below the poverty line. Oh and rather than craning my neck around to see any potental gore at vehicle accidents, I stop and render care. :)

                  I feel no guilt about not doing enough. There is always the opportunity to do more, when I see where I could be effective, I move foward in that direction. :)
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: "how many (oops) hospitals have you built? "

                    Fri, March 21, 2008 - 12:30 PM
                    >> I feel no guilt about not doing enough. There is always the opportunity to do more, when I see where I could be effective, I move foward in that direction. :) <<

                    If you feel no guilt about not doing enough - then maybe you should not feel the need to criticize others for not doing enough (in your opinion). You know, just for consistency's sake?
  • rax
    rax
    offline 7

    Re: $19M Mandir

    Thu, March 20, 2008 - 9:18 PM

    I find it hard to believe that people spend their time discussing this.

    To put things in perspective, the iraq war costs about 1.5 BILLION A DAY.

    So, unless we're discussing why that money isn't going into child education or health-care, it is foolish to count pennies when you're losing by the pound.
    • Re: $19M Mandir

      Fri, March 21, 2008 - 3:21 AM
      Hey, Rax. Well, it is not just a matter of any numbers here I suppose.

      Now that I have been following this somewhat for a while (it began elsewhere), it appears that real the issue is: Building a house of worship in the US of A (to be more precise, in the city where my friend resides ;-)

      If I am not mistaken, and at the risk of sounding like devil's (deity's?) advocate here, these are the same people who build a temple in the north of London near Wembly, which happened to wound its way into the Guinness Book of records also. I suppose that was the 'largest' house of worship out side of India, until this one. Now, that London structure costed a bomb at that time. The interesting part is where the money came from. The story goes that the legendary Wembly stadium is only near-by, and all those 'followers' of this said faith volunteered for a decade or so to collect beer-cans and stuff from within and around the stadium after every weekend match, load them for recycling, collect credit, and add that to the construction kitty.

      Now, throwing a little bit of economics into this, a hand-gain of roughly 10,000 GBP every week for ten years could easily build a corpus of GBP 5M over a decade. For simplicity, let's consider inflation and depreciation are cancelled out by interest and a little surplus. So, we have roughly $10M at the end of our first decade, which I think was the cost of construction at that time. Whether empty beer cans could fetch you 10k per week or not is a separate issue (central London make more than three times that as minor congestion charges).

      The point is, $19M is just a tag line for Mickey to add to his article's hit count (oops.. that was below the belt, I guess... sorry Mickey ;-)

      IMHO, talking about numbers is a sere waste of more numbers in this case, let alone ranting about how else it could have been used.
      The point is: what is the issue in building a house of worship? After all, do you need that? (especially whilst you are a non-practicing atheist?)
    • Re: $19M Mandir

      Fri, March 21, 2008 - 7:28 AM
      >> So, unless we're discussing why that money isn't going into child education or health-care, it is foolish to count pennies when you're losing by the pound. <<

      I agree with the sentiment - but at the same time I feel it is very justified to speak out in defense of the good people who built this Temple. They are being publicly criticized in a way that is just appalling to me. What makes it even more appalling is that this Temple is a symbol of diversity and tolerance.

      Once this kind of unfair and potentially harmful public criticism is out there - it is important to respond to it.
      • Re: $19M Mandir

        Fri, March 21, 2008 - 3:40 PM
        No temple is a symbol of diversity.
        • Re: $19M Mandir

          Sun, March 23, 2008 - 2:04 AM
          Swarm) No temple is a symbol of diversity.

          Okay, let's put a word in: temple is a symbol of _unity of_ diversity.

          Now that, Paula, makes it even easier to kick-start I suppose ;-)
          • Re: $19M Mandir

            Sun, March 23, 2008 - 6:22 AM
            pantheon...
            • Re: $19M Mandir

              Sun, March 23, 2008 - 11:06 AM
              Truly, what is a symbol of diversity?

              Then, if we can answer that question, why couldn't it be encoded into a temple? Isn't a Buddhist temple (ideally) as much a call to enter into the diverse beauty of nature/creation (as much as just a still place for the mindspirit).... if it's not too specific in its sectness (secular Buddhism-ism)?

              I'm something of a nature temple builder....... serene places that just happen to be Buddha-esque in qualities.

              If only I had more than a hunnerd dollars at a time to work with....... chump change to the power-crazed undi-verse temple spendo-thrift-naughts.
              • Truly, what is a symbol of diversity?

                Sun, March 23, 2008 - 11:31 AM
                tinyurl.com/mou2v

                Oh and 'Secular' v. 'Sect'

                Secular: Origin: 1250–1300; < ML séculāris, LL saeculāris worldly, temporal (opposed to eternal), L: of an age, equiv. to L saecul(um) long period of time + -āris -ar1; r. ME seculer < OF

                Sect: Origin: 1300–50; ME secte < L secta something to follow, pathway, course of conduct, school of thought, prob. n. deriv. of sectārī to pursue, accompany, wait upon, freq. of sequī to follow.

                There can be a sect of secular Buddhists, but not all sects are secular. :)
                • Re: Truly, what is a symbol of diversity?

                  Sun, March 23, 2008 - 12:05 PM
                  I used to use the rainbow extensively in my work, but now I simply use a spectrum of colors.... as specific reference to rainbows, per se, most commonly has come to evoke issues of genderism (normal vs wildernormal)

                  A rainbow temple might be better described as a Spectral Temple.

                  Sects of secular sex seem sectually sexular.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Truly, what is a symbol of diversity?

                    Sun, March 23, 2008 - 12:15 PM
                    'genderism' I would assume is referring to the Pride flag [not the reference above] , which was not co-opted by the queer community, but rather abandonned by others when the BLGTQQ embraced it. [case in point... www.academia.org/campus_re...00_4.html]

                    "Sects of secular sex seem sectually sexular"

                    I would imagine a bisexual might agree.
                    • Re: Truly, what is a symbol of diversity?

                      Sun, March 23, 2008 - 12:40 PM
                      It was more like all the "What, are you gay?" inquiries dampened the enthusiasm for utilizing the quadri-opted symbol for this timespell. Take a popular symbol and use it to symbolize a socially controversial issue (due to homophobia), and the symbol gets set aside from primary symbolic use, as a practical matter, whether or not there's actual phobism involved with the aside-setters. Modified (not the graphic flagstripey) rainbow use continues by all who want to symbolize........ color, light, rainbows.
                      • Indeed, off-topic but this is classic for those who find the inquiry to be an insult.
                        • I don't find it insulting, except to my intelligence. As a sensitive and intelligent male who doesn't actively participate in the objectification of women, I may seem possibly gay to some people. Since I am not gay, this can be a problem. Is there a problem that I have a problem with being identified as gay? Words like "classic" are a classic way to insult (whether intentionally or not) those who are simply rather neutral on the issue, except where it intrudes upon the atmosphere of social neutrality.
                          This very same issue goes with use of the star of david and the swastika. The star of david and the swastika are both classic symbols that originally had Nothing! to do with Jews or Nazis. Why don't you we use them to symbolize universal diversity? One is a Very universal sign of harmonic integrity.The other, (swastika) also a universal sign of Energy.... energetics, as in Vortexual motion. The Swastika has been used in Buddhism..... What, are you Nazi? Do you find the inquiry insulting? How many hot buttons can we push? Being thought of as queer has been hellacious for me on occasion......... so if there's some bad blood with being misidentified.... that understandable.... and may have nothing to do with my personal opinion of homosexuality.
                      • Re: Truly, what is a symbol of diversity?

                        Tue, March 25, 2008 - 4:31 AM
                        There's a hard sell on Gay in the mindless media in the UK.

                        And there seems to be a large-scale plan to reduce the world's population.

                        If I was offered a better home on another planet, I might
                        voluntarily reduce the world's population by a factor of one.

                        But I think I came here to get something done.

                        ~~~~~~~~~
                        • Re: Truly, what is a symbol of diversity?

                          Tue, March 25, 2008 - 5:05 AM
                          There is a desperate need to reduce the world's population, but no amount of "hard sell on Gay" is going to effect it one way or the other.

                          The natural rate of homosexuals is and has been with us the entire time and is rock steady as far as these things go.

                          So far the only things known to actually reduce population are reducing poverty, increasing education and increasing women's rights.