Advertisement
I've ben reading about the seven-limb preliminary practice on the Berzin Archives.
www.berzinarchives.com/web/en...mb.html
My question concerns the act of prostration. What is the usual form of prostration? Is it acceptable to use Surya Namaskar (Sun salutation) in this context?
www.berzinarchives.com/web/en...mb.html
My question concerns the act of prostration. What is the usual form of prostration? Is it acceptable to use Surya Namaskar (Sun salutation) in this context?
posted by:
|
Philadelphia
|
Advertisement
Advertisement
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 9:44 AMIn the context of Santideva's Bodhisattvacharyavatara mental intention definitely trumps physical movement. I see no particular reason why one couldn't use Sun-salutations if one wasn't overly concerned with traditional formalities. However, the prostrations as traditionally done are excellent exercise and form the basis of many more elaborate Tibetan yogic movements.
www.youtube.com/watch -
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 12:41 PMUltimately, I think prostration has to require the intent to do it.
I don't think that is very easy. The first time that I actually thought of prostrating, I was in my early 20's and had already been meditating a few years.
Over the course of these last, almost 30 years, the actual number of times that I felt like prostrating myself, has got to be less than 10.
However, having done prostrations, as an exercise, it definitely has great spiritual power.
The ego is really such a wild maniac. Even when you direct the ego toward spiritual things, it then quickly grasps on to those with pride, ego, arrogance, superiority and the whole maniacal realm of ignorance.
What I found with the practice of prostration is that it really serves to keep that crazy ego in check.
As far as the physical act is concerned, I think it is always wise to obey form, in you can. Because, with prostration, the whole idea is to submit, rather than rebel. If we want to inculcate obedience and surrender to something beyond ourselves, it also helps to obey rote rules.
Generally, rules are just guidelines, but in the case of prostration, I think obeying an outward and perhaps annoying rule, also helps to serve to control the ego - which only wants to do things "its" way.
Of course, if you have any physical injuries which make the act difficult, then find something to do which does not aggravate an injury.
And, you know, if your heart is in the right place...the outer form really does not matter much.
Though, as I have stated, with prostration...to help bow, control and dominate the ego, it does seem to help to obey rules that you might otherwise feel a desire to discard or rebel against.
best wishes on your spiritual journey
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 11:01 AMPhysical movement can help with intent. I think Ryan practices yoga everyday. I once asked a well respected honky tibetan kagyu lama who has done retreat with Karthar Rinpoche about physical movements incorporated with prayer not just mudras and he was clueless. It is neglected fact that movement has much effect on mind. Just by looking up gives energy and looking down pacifies energy. This is why you should never look up while angry or down while weak.
I am most grateful for Yantra Yoga introduction by Ryan!
Same moves as Hatha but much older. And it is Tibetan.
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 4:07 PMThanks guys (and girl). The video was helpful, as was the instruction re: ego. I can see that the traditional Buddhist form is much more of a spiritual/religious practice, whereas my experience with sun salutation is more physical. I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this. I enjoy reading the Buddhist stuff, especially the Berzin Archives, but I'm leery of religion in general (which is, I suppose, where prostrations come into the picture). I intend to get into some of the Lam Rim material and I want to practice correctly.
The philosophy of Yoga and Buddhism seems to have a lot in common, and I believe they have some common roots. The Samkhya literature doesn't say much about practice, and I'm trying to discover what practices may be consistent with the philosophy. But I don't want to disrespect Buddhism by simply borrowing some Buddhist practices.
Then again, there seem to be lots of different Buddhist practices. Doesn't everybody pick and choose the practices that they want to do? -
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 5:18 PMJust doing one practice consistently is awesome as long as you can keep it up. I only do refuge and tummo nowadays. Find something that works for you and stick to it don't just "dabble" if you want results. Religions are faulty human constructs just like governments. No need to dwell on proof of holy perfection..... you won't find it. I find vajrayana is essentially "holy hypnosis" and it is very effective for quick results if you are sincere practitioner wanting true mastery of the self and be of benefit to others.
Just my dumb opinion, sorry if it blows. :)
-
-
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 6:39 PMCertainly intent is needed to enter prostitution, but the are other questions as well...do you want a pimp? Is craig's list still safe? gay, straight or bi? How much to charge?
Oh wait! You said "prostration." Oops. Um, sure prostration can be fun too. Its not one of those things which I "get" as to what the big deal is though. Some people really freak about it though.
Ryan and Jon are both pretty knowledgeable. Personally, its my experience that prostrations are mainly a mark of respect and humility. I would think if it got to much into being about a good stretch that you might loose focus, but I could be wrong. -
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 10:10 AMI only prostrate myself before my guru, Scoop "Wes" Nisker. AKA Scoopji. At every opportunity. Preferably in public. -
-
Guru
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 3:58 PMHey I learned something on Halloween that I thought was interesting. Buddha never referred to himself as a guru. Also, I will try to find a reference for the sutta, but I was told that he also said rather than a guru, a person should find a friend to help along the eightfold path.
That was my candy [brain candy] for Halloween.
-
-
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 2:37 PMIf you are going to do the traditional tibetan route, full body prostrations are required. It helps to have a "cushy slide" or mat so you can kinda fall down and quickly slide back up to get them done fast. -
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 2:59 PM>If you are going to do the traditional tibetan route, full body prostrations are required.
A little padding for the knee and something to help "slide" and certainly helpful. A lot of people do at least 108 every morning and without these types of material aids, one can develop problems pretty quickly.
I'm not sure if Sam is interested in going the traditional route (I know he was/is a serious Samkya/Patanjali practitioner) or if he is merely interested in adopting/adapting a few practices from Buddhist sources.
Whichever the case may be, there are many resources on the net on this and other practices. Obviously personal instruction is preferred, but until then there is plenty to get one started. -
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 3:46 PMPatanjali, is he or that the precept practice? Just curious. -
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 4:23 PMOn Patanjali:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pata%C3%B1jali
On Samkhya:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya
samkhya-yoga.org -
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 9:31 PMInteresting, thanks. Are these consitered Buddhist traditions? Not that it matters.. -
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 11:49 PMAre these consitered Buddhist traditions?
Nope. Which is why I hesitate to treat Sam as somebody who is purely interested in adopting traditional Buddhism as a path. He may have such an interest, but he may also be more oriented towards adopting and adapting a few Buddhist practices.
Samkhya did have a decided impact on the Kalacakra system however (as did a number of Saivist traditions). -
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 2:36 PMYeah, I understand, and thanks for the explanation, there's much crossover in Southern Buddhism. Some time ago I read about a school or practice that included Pantanjali Yogic stuff and it was a Buddhist tradition.
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 5:31 PMThere is a thin board that you can put down and with fuzzy gloves and a pillow for the knees, I can do a lot without any resistance. Mine was $1.
When I told my teacher that I realized during a drupchen how arrogant and critical I am he recommemded a practice that requires full prostrations. I took this to indicate that the prostrations can subdue all that ego nonesense and can be very humbling.
My ego is so furtive I have to convince myself that by doing them I will lose weight and be strong. lol Of course, once I sit for it I'm focused more on offering the merit and I look up at the sweet face of my guru and I am so grateful to be able to make effort for us all. -
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 5:52 PM
>My ego is so furtive I have to convince myself that by doing them I will lose weight and be strong.
He he. I know all about that one!! I think its pretty common for the ego to take practices aimed at -taming it- and try to make them enhance it ;-)
-
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 11:44 PMI've never really gotten the objectification of "ego" as other and obstacle/enemy.
For example weight has little or nothing to do with "ego." We evolved without means of keeping food anywhere except in our bodies so our appetites and fat expect us to have hungry periods and need to store some away and have to work hard to get more...but that isn't how it is any more.
We have plenty of food, fresh and tasty, available 24/7. We hardly have to move at all to get it.
Fighting with the normal functioning of the body and its homeostasis is just never going to work. Working with what your genetics expects, will work. Ego, whatever that is, has little or nothing to do with it.
Buddhists for example are mainly vegetarian and tend to not eat after noon and try to leave a meal hungry still (and yes I'm being vague and generalizing). This works with what the body is expecting and you'll hit the thinner side of your normal range.
That particular method doesn't work with my current lifestyle so instead I have lean days every other day. Basically I eat really light, 1000 calories or less, every other day. This reduces my total calorie count but doesn't make my body think it needs to stave off starvation. If you want to be fancy you can set it up as fasting. (Vegetable soups work great for the lean day.)
Throw in enough prostrations to break a sweat three times a day and you won't have to worry about your weight further. Expect about 3 months before your reestablish equilibrium. Sure it’s not groovy and it doesn't fulfill the protestant need for self punishment, but it works and its very doable. -
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 2:22 AM"Buddhists for example are mainly vegetarian and tend to not eat after noon ... "
Which tradition? Our Tibetan Vajrayana teachers eat three meals a day and snack late at night during drupchen. This is first I have heard of this. Please tell me more.
Thank you. -
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 7:45 AMIt would be the ones following Vinaya, specifically the 10 precepts:
Refrain from:
1. Taking life (ahimsa).
2. Taking what is not given.
3. Sexual misconduct.
4. Lying and deception.
5. Drinking liquor.
6. Eating after noon.
7. Observing dancing, singing, and other entertainments.
8. Wearing garlands, scents, unguents, or ornaments.
9. The use of high beds.
10. Accepting gold and silver (i.e., money).
Vajrayana is also odd among mahayana schools in that meat is eaten, where as most mahayana schools tend to be more heavily in to vegetarianism. Theravadan schools tend to be more in the middle on the subject.
Vajrayana has a good deal of Bon and Tantric influences you don't see else where. Another oddity is the perfusion of magical elements and deities/supernatural beings.
some sayings and eating talk... ( www.experiencefestival.com/a/Bu...03252 )
meat should not be eaten under three circumstances: when it is seen or heard or suspected (that a living being has been purposely slaughtered for the eater); these, Jivaka, are the three circumstances in which meat should not be eaten, Jivaka! I declare there are three circumstances in which meat can be eaten: when it is not seen or heard or suspected (that a living being has been purposely slaughtered for the eater); Jivaka, I say these are the three circumstances in which meat can be eaten. --Buddha
The Buddha, on one particular occasion, specifically refused suggestions by a monk to institute vegetarianism in Sangha. According to Kassapa Buddha (a previous Buddha of legend not Shakyamuni Buddha) "[t]aking life, beating, wounding, binding, stealing, lying, deceiving, worthless knowledge, adultery; this is stench. Not the eating of meat." (Amagandha Sutta). There were, however, rules prohibiting consumption of 10 types of meat. Those are humans, elephants, horses, dogs, snakes, lions, tigers, leopards, bears and hyenas because these animals can be provoked by the smell of the flesh of their own kind.
Theravada commentaries explain the Buddha was making distinction between direct destruction of life and eating of already dead meat. Moreover, they point out that any act of consumption would involve proxy killing, including the farming of crops, so the idea that meat eating amounted to proxy killing while eating vegetables does not is ignorance. -
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 7:55 AMRefrain from:
1. Taking life (ahimsa).
2. Taking what is not given.
3. Sexual misconduct.
4. Lying and deception.
5. Drinking liquor.
6. Eating after noon.
7. Observing dancing, singing, and other entertainments.
8. Wearing garlands, scents, unguents, or ornaments.
9. The use of high beds.
10. Accepting gold and silver (i.e., money).
What is the tradition this comes from?
"meat should not be eaten under three circumstances: when it is seen or heard or suspected (that a living being has been purposely slaughtered for the eater"
Thank you, Swarm for such an infornative response.
-
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 3:58 PMWhat's this no reading after noon business? What's that about?
-
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Beginning practice question
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 4:01 PMI mean eating.
lol
-
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 7:28 PMThe Vinaya is part of the earliest collection of Buddhist texts the Tripitaka. In theory it is a compilation of the original rules the Buddhists lived by. Supposedly Upali recited the Vinaya to the sangha after the Buddha's death at the first council.
So when you ask what tradition...all of them.
Some Vajrayana claims a "tantric exception" to it, but that raises the question of if it is tantra or Buddhism.
But in terms of shall we say "traditional" Buddhism they all make use of the Vinaya as a basis of their precepts - though exactly how and which gets a bit loosey goosey after you get past the first 5.
-
-
Re: Beginning practice question,
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 10:28 AM>Vajrayana has a good deal of Bon and Tantric influences you don't see else where.
Could you please name some of these "Bon" influences?
I've found the well over 90% of what gets labeled "Bon" influence is actually Indic material (especially, but not exclusively Kapalika material). The common material found in Bon and Buddhism is almost entirely the result of influence moving in the -opposite- direction.
As to Vajrayana and tantric influence, the proliferation of deities and magical practices, attitudes about meat and alcohol, your comments seem on target.
Warmly
Ryan -
-
Re: Beginning practice question,
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 11:11 AMI can think of prayer flags, prayer wheels, and tormas. I am pretty sure they came from bon . I could be wrong. -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Beginning practice question,
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 11:36 AMTorma are merely Bali offerings and are mentioned in many Indic tantric sources.
Prayer flags are said to be Indic in origin, being introduced by to Tibet Atisa in the 11th century
books.google.com/books
Given the use of Sanskrit and clockwise rotation, it seems unlikely that prayer wheels represent any influence from Bon, but I don't know enough about them to comment meaningfully. It is important to distinguish between Tibetan origin and "Bon" influence. There are many Tibetan innovations that are post-Buddhist inventions that have little or nothing to do with Bon. If prayer wheels are really Tibetan in origin, I suspect that they fall into this category. But this is just speculation on my part.
In any event, these are not the sort of thing people are usually thinking of when the speak of "Bon" influence. The use of magic, human-bone implements, and the like, are more frequently what people have in mind.
Warmly
Ryan -
-
Re: Beginning practice question,
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 11:48 AMI had a vague recollection that there was an article suggesting that prayer-wheels might represent a Chinese influence. I was surprised that the article proved quite easy to find using google. Here it is:
himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/coll...3.pdf
-
Re: Beginning practice question,
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 11:56 AMAwesome info thanks Ryan! Sorry for off-topic wrong answers! Got one more: Did dzogchen come from bon? Or is it persia like Nazoreans say? -
-
Re: Beginning practice question,
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 12:28 PMI believe that Dzogchen is a Central-Asian varient of teachings that were well established in Indic traditions. There are a number of clear-connections between the sahaja/mahamudra teachings and Dzogchen, and it appears that a common origin is quite likely.
As to some of the aspect usualy considered fairly unique to Dzogchen, including sun-gazing, the use of a yogadanda and yogapatta to maintain specific longde postures, posture similar to those use in thogal, and a soteriology based on the creation of a body-of-light (or rainbow-body), all show up in non-Buddhist yogic traditions such as those of the Nathas. So, the tradition does seem to fit very well within Indic traditions of Pala period yoga/tantra (especially Buddhist tantra).
Buddhism entered Persia well before Islam and Persian traditions (both Sufic and Buddhist) show a weird confluence of materials, some of which mirror Dzogchen teachings quite well.
www.scribd.com/doc/217880...nsformation
Much of the material that became "Yungdrung Bon" does seem to show some signs of Persian influence. The YDB tradition probably represents a wealth of Central-Asian Buddhist material *(as well as some indigenous Tibetan elements) which entered Tibet via the Zhang-Zhung culture. There is a great deal of speculation on this issue but little in the way of hard cold facts (at least at present) -
-
Re: Beginning practice question,
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 12:58 PManother thing I would add to what I previously posted...above...
is that, in addition to prostration, there are many outer techniques that aid our inner aspiration.
Prostration is only one.
by the way, I have back problems, so when I do prostrations (which is not that frequently), I do them on a bed...it would be bad for my back if I did them without some padding under me.
Anyway, the traditional mudras have helped me.
If I am feeling insincere, the "prayer mudra" helps me inculcate more soulfulness.
burning incense has helped me (prior to me getting asthma!)...
candles, flowers on a shrine...
all have done wonderful things for my inspiration.
So, if you meditate, I think finding some of these aids is an important tool to have.
I do agree with those who shun "aids." I think it is very good to practice meditation without any aids. It does make one stronger.
In fact, one can even go farther and create obstructions to meditation, just to overcome them. For example, play some annoying talk radio or loud music that you don't like while you meditate. If you can conquer that, you develop more strength.
I use to try to meditate in the NYC subway. It is a very interesting experience. In order to make it work at all, you really have to get very detached...well, at least that was the way in for me.
But, if you are down, depressed, sick, or having a hard time, for whatever reason....then taking an aid can help move the process forward.
best wishes everyone,
Jon
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Beginning practice question,
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 7:10 PMRy: Could you please name some of these "Bon" influences?
I'm willing to take your mix of the ratios, I've no in depth study of either Bon or Northern Tantra.
Here is the Bon foundation for those interested... www.bonfoundation.org/aboutbon.html
A letter from the DL www.bonfoundation.org/letter.html
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 7:25 AM
Oops! A wink for Ryan's comment.
-
-
Re: question on prostration "OM SARVA TATHAGATA PADA VANDANAM KAROMI"
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 11:34 AM
Re Sam:
"My question concerns the act of prostration. What is the usual form of prostration?"
Hi Sam.
Basically, there are similar forms but the fundamental approach remains the same.
1) The correct prostration is a Full Body prostration, which is flat out forward, not folding one's arms in a partial fetal position.
2) The correct form includes some type of Buddhist Refuge prayer, such as Fourfold Refuge, or Threefold Refuge.
3) The correct form includes a visualization of a Buddhist lineage or lineages, which could be for Shakyamuni Buddha and the Eighteen Arhats, or for Amitabha Buddha, or for Nyingma or Kagyu lineage.
3a) Alternatively, one may simply connect with the guru prsent before oneself as a true embodiment of Refuge, without visualization.
4) The most general form of prostration in Mahayana is undertaken with Bodhicitta, or universal compassion.
5) The correct form of prostration ( and refuge ) includes understanding of the Buddhist Precepts and Refuge in the Buddhist Law, such as The Ten Precepts. For that you need some teaching.
For concise and comprehensive teachings on Buddhist refuge, Ten Precepts, Mahayana, and related topics, see the book
"Dakini Teachings" by Padmasambhava.
One classical prostration mantra is
OM SARVA TATHAGATA PADA VANDANAM KAROMI
"Om I bow at the feet of all the Enlightened Ones."
Hope this helps.
KT
Sarva mangalam!
-
-
Re: question on prostration "OM SARVA TATHAGATA PADA VANDANAM KAROMI"
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 11:39 AMRe Sam:
"Is it acceptable to use Surya Namaskar (Sun salutation) in this context? "
No. It is not.
The Surya Namaskar is Sun Salutation, as the name says. This is an unrelated Hindu practice. It is a very important and worthwhile yoga, but has nothing to do with Buddhist refuge prostrations, any more than does tai chi practice or kung fu form practice, etc.
Again, the book "Dakini Teachings" explains what Refuge means, and Buddhist prostration practice is all about Buddhist refuge.
KT
-
-
Re: question on prostration "OM SARVA TATHAGATA PADA VANDANAM KAROMI"
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 12:01 PMWhat KT says is all more or less on target from a traditional/Tibetan point of view.
However, as I speculated and Sam later made clear, he is not currently at a point where he is making any formal commitments to following a traditional Buddhist path.
I wouldn't go so far as to say they are "unrelated". I do prostrations and used to do sun-salutations. They seem to be similar enough to posit at least the -possibility- of common origin.
Sun-salutations (in their many current forms) appear to be a relatively recent invention however. There are a number of "prostration-like" movements in yantra yoga that are probably much older. -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: question on prostration "OM SARVA TATHAGATA PADA VANDANAM KAROMI", not sun worship nor praying to Mecca
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:56 PMRe Ryan:
"I wouldn't go so far as to say they are "unrelated".
Wrong answer. Surya Namaskar and Buddhist refuge prostrations are completely unrelated in theory, practice, and history / lineage terms.
Of course, Ryan has this idea that Islamists destroying the Buddhist University of Nalanda and other fun engagements are to be understood as somehow showing a relationship of Islam to Buddhadharma. There is no such relationship.
Buddhadharma is what Guru Sakyamuni taught, and what the well-founded Buddhist lineages taught. These lineages do incorporate Hindu theory and practice to a significant extent, but those Hindu teachings are not central nor foundational, and Islam remains wholly foreign and antagonistic to Buddhadharma in all respects and on all levels, contrary to Ryan and Swarm.
Furthermore, sun worship is *not* a newer Hindu sadhana. It goes back to the very ancient roots of Sanatana Dharma ( Hinduism ), as Dr. David Frawley will affirm
So it's
"OM SARVA TATHAGATA PADA VANDANAM KAROMI", not sun worship nor praying to Mecca.
It's all about the importance of getting to square one. In this context, Buddhist refuge.
Re:
"What KT says is all more or less on target from a Tibetan point of view."
Response:
I didn't say anything about Tibet. The above prostration mantra is found in the Sino-Japanese Buddhsit tradition independent of Indo Tibetan Buddhism. This is a formal dharma teaching, and it is exact, not more or less correct.
The teaching of Guru Padmasambhava I referenced in Dakini Teachings is exact, not "more or less correct", And it is certainly not Islamic influenced.
And it is still okay to quote Shakespeare once in a while, Ryan's laughable condemnations notwithstanding.
KT -
-
Re: question on prostration "OM SARVA TATHAGATA PADA VANDANAM KAROMI", not sun worship nor praying to Mecca
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 2:30 PM>Wrong answer. Surya Namaskar and Buddhist refuge prostrations are completely unrelated in theory,
>practice, and history / lineage terms.
I strongly doubt this is true. The movements are similar enough to make a common origin well within the realm of possibility. This is especially true of the earlier simpler forms: www.istockphoto.com/file_thu...eries.jpg
>Of course, Ryan has this idea that Islamists destroying the Buddhist University of Nalanda and other fun
> engagements are to be understood as somehow showing a relationship of Islam to Buddhadharma.
I've never claimed any such thing. You are well aware of that fact.
>There is no such relationship.
I have demonstrated the connection between Saiva, Buddhist, and Sufic yoga/alchemy with many examples in numerous posts. You have not proven capable of refuting even a *single* example among the many I posted. Which I have to say is a less than impressive track-record. Until you bother actually addressing the examples I posted, you are just blowing hot air that is completely devoid of substance.
Among the resources I've pointed to which demonstrate this mutual influence are:
www.scribd.com/people/doc...lder/130773
allyoga.tribe.net/thread/0f...64a2096b2f
Making a claim (that Islam, Saivism, and Buddhism have no shared yogic or alchemical materiel) and backing that claim up with evidence are different things. You've done the former many times, but you have apparently been too frightened to even attempt the later.
>Furthermore, sun worship is *not* a newer Hindu sadhana.
We were talking about "sun-salutations". We were not talking about "sun worship" (or even the prostrations involved in "sun worship', which show an equally clear connection to the prostrations in Buddhism).
I challenge you to cite a *single* book (English, Sanskrit, Hindi, or Bengali) that illustrates or describes the "sun-salutation" sequence that was written before the 18th century.
Hell, I'd even be very surprised if you could cite one written before the 19th century.
>I didn't say anything about Tibet.
You cited the book _Dakini Teachings_ as a source for information on the practice. It is a *Tibetan* book.
Moreover, I didn't say you claimed to be representing a Tibetan view. I said that the views you articulated were more or less congruent with Tibetan views. Those are quite different statements.
I've made efforts to elevate the tone of my interactions with you, but I can see that, so far, the effort appears to have been largely pointless.
Best Regards,
Ryan -
-
Re: question on prostration "OM SARVA TATHAGATA PADA VANDANAM KAROMI", not sun worship nor praying to Mecca
Sat, November 14, 2009 - 2:32 PMeven a caveman can do it!
-
-
Re: question on prostration "OM SARVA TATHAGATA PADA VANDANAM KAROMI", not sun worship nor praying to Mecca
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 7:52 AMEverything constantly changes nothing stays the same. Most muslims and buddhists live side-by-side peacefully for ages. Haven't muslims in times past also been the "protectors" of buddhists? Maybe save them from extinction in past? They interpreted buddhists as "people of the book". They fought off foreign invaders effectively because they had no pacifistic views, and there are many buddhist songs of praise and thanks to their "muslim neighbors". Now they are all considered terrorists because of the acts of a few muslim individuals. Kinda like the usa is terrorist because of a few usa individuals. KT what you HATE is illusion, it is just a simple "coating" covering buddhanature that we all have to some degree.
-
Re: question on prostration "OM SARVA TATHAGATA PADA VANDANAM KAROMI", not sun worship nor praying to Mecca
Sun, November 15, 2009 - 1:07 PMKT: "Islam remains wholly foreign and antagonistic to Buddhadharma in all respects and on all levels."
So you say. If this were true at "all levels", then there would be something inherently existant in Islam. This contradicts everything Buddha taught about dependent related existance at all levels of Sutra and Tantra.
KT, this statement demonstrates both your ignorance of emptiness as explained in the Dharma, and your own bias of hatred and anger which while being part of our Samsaric existance, is clearly against everything else you claim to believe or teach.
Better rethink that one...
-
-
-
-
Re: question on prostration "OM SARVA TATHAGATA PADA VANDANAM KAROMI"
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 5:27 PMI want to express my sincere appreciation and gratitude to KT for his clear and direct instruction, which was most helpful. I've purchased a copy of "Dakini Teachings" and will begin reading it as soon as it arrives. And to everyone else who contributed, thank you all. -
-
Re: question on prostration "OM SARVA TATHAGATA PADA VANDANAM KAROMI"
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 5:34 PM>I want to express my sincere appreciation and gratitude to KT
>for his clear and direct instruction, which was most helpful.
Quite true. I was trying to communicate the usefulness of the information he posted as providing good insight into the Traditional/Tibetan view of the matter.
However, KT even found reason to take issue with a statement I intended as a compliment. Sometimes people just want to disagree to be disagreeable.
In any event, KT -does- often post accurate and useful information, and for that he should be acknowledged. -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: question on prostration "OM SARVA TATHAGATA PADA VANDANAM KAROMI"
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 5:15 AMThe compliment might have been a bit lefthanded. -
-
Re: question on prostration "OM SARVA TATHAGATA PADA VANDANAM KAROMI"
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 10:02 AMPerhaps it was. I didn't intend it as particularly left-handed. However, given our history, even a left handed compliment would be a step in the right direction. -
-
Re: question on prostration "OM SARVA TATHAGATA PADA VANDANAM KAROMI"
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 11:11 PMI know but given your history it is going to be difficult to compliment well and having compliments taken as insincere is a step in the same direction instead of the right direction.
I try to make a point of compliments just being compliments, especially under those circumstances.
I know it is difficult to let go of the history, but there will be plenty of opprotunities to address that but moments of appreciation with those you don't see eye-to-eye with are rare enough they diserve some space to sit in unperturbed by other considerations. Not only does this make one's intent clearer, but most people have great difficulty accepting compliments and this helps them realize you really mean what you are saying.
Also like any gift its important to remember it isn't owned, ie no strings or caveats.
Anyway that's my thoughts on the matter, your milage may vary. :) -
-
Re: question on Mahayana as magic and oddities
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 12:06 PM
Re Swarm:
"Vajrayana has . . . Another oddity is the perfusion of magical elements and deities/supernatural beings."
Not odd. Vajrayana is classical Mahayana Buddhism. Classical Mahayana is NOT odd to Buddhists, it the the general case.
Classical Mahayana has tons of magic and many deities, such as Vajrapani, Avalokitesvara, and Manjusri, and the Medicine Buddha. These are not Hindu nor Bonpo, they are prominent in general throughout Mahayana *and* Buddhist tantra.
Sorry Swarm. Better luck next time.
KT -
-
Re: question on Mahayana as magic and oddities
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 9:57 PMActually Vajrayana is most definitely not "classical Mahayana." It definately has Mahayana roots but it has gone its own way from the other Mahayana schools.
Which might be why it’s called "Vajrayana" instead of "Mahayana." ;)
For example your "empowerments" are totally meaningless in Mahayana.
But there is no need to be pissy KT.
If you plan on trying to represent the DL, you should strive for a bit more compassion.
-
-
-
Re: question on prostration "OM SARVA TATHAGATA PADA VANDANAM KAROMI"
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 5:02 PMI did not mean to downplay the video, which was also quite helpful. -
-
Re: question on prostration "OM SARVA TATHAGATA PADA VANDANAM KAROMI"
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 10:00 PMNo worries Sam.
The funny thing about Buddhists, especially online, is how intent we get on proving we are still human. ;)
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Beginning practice question
Sun, November 15, 2009 - 1:24 PMSam, very good question. There are four forms of prostration that I have been taught in my study of Dharma and Buddhist practice. These are Mental prostrations, Heart prostrations, Kneeling prostrations and Full-length prostrations.
Mental prostrations are just that; mentally imagined or visualized, and these are often done where to do the other forms of prostration would be either physically difficult and impossible, or when to do so might not be appropriate given the circumstances one might find themselves in such as sitting in a close row of chairs or when a guest in another traditions place of worship.
Heart prostrations are where the hands are held together with the thumbs held inside the palms like holding a prescious jewel. These are either done by holding the palms steady at the heart, or by raising the palms to the crown, throat, and heart center in sequence. These are usually done along with the refuge prayer. - Repeat three times.
Kneeling prostrations are done as above but as you bring your hands to your heart, you bow all the way to kneeling and touch your forehead to lightly to the ground, then back up. 3x, etc
Full-body prostrations are done standing and the hands are brought to the heart as if doing a Heart prostration, and then you kneel, then fall forward onto the palms, then downward so that your heart center touches the ground and your palms are then drawn up and extended all the way up until the edge of your palms touch the ground, then in reverse until you are standing again. These can be done any number of times and there is a story of a monk who circumambulated Mt. Meru by performing these one prostration at a time in conjunction with the Migsema prayer!
Hope this helps!
