why is it so danm hard to

topic posted Fri, February 29, 2008 - 7:53 AM by  starbuck
why is it so danm hard to find direct translations of sutras without comentarys and editorials or intterpretations?

it is madening.

if you haave a line on good sorces for such translations, espesialy afordable books of directly translated sutras with minimal editorials, i just want to read what buddhas buddys put together after he kiked the bucket, not what a buch of monks think it ment , i want to read it, listen to it, absorb it and make it a part of of my spiritual knoledge on my own terms. that is the way i can get the most out of it.
posted by:
starbuck
SF Bay Area
  • Re: why is it so danm hard to

    Fri, February 29, 2008 - 7:53 AM
    I. The Buddha's First Sermon
    And the Blessed One thus addressed the five Bhikkhus [1]."There are two extremes, O Bhikkhus, which he who has given up the world ought to avoid. What are these two extremes? A life given to pleasures, devoted to pleasures and lusts: this is degrading, sensual, vulgar, ignoble, and profitless; and a life given to mortifications: this is painful, ignoble, and profitless. By avoiding these two extremes, O Bhikkhus, the Tathagata [2] has gained the knowledge of the Middle Path which leads to insight, which leads to wisdom, which conduces to calm, to knowledge, to the Sambodhi [3], to Nirvana.[4]

    Which, O Bhikkhus, is this Middle Path the knowledge of which the Tathagata has gained, which leads to insight, which leads to wisdom, which conduces to calm, to knowledge, to the Sambodhi, to Nirvana? It is the Holy Eightfold Path, namely, Right Belief, Right Aspiration, Right Speech, Right Conduct, Right Means of Livelihood, Right Endeavor, Right Memory, Right Meditation. This, O Bhikkhus, is the
    Middle Path the knowledge of which the Tathagata has gained, which leads to insight, which leads to wisdom, which conduces to calm, to knowledge, to the Sambodhi, to Nirvana.

    "This, O Bhikkhus, is the Noble Truth of Suffering: Birth is suffering; decay is suffering; illness is suffering; death is suffering. Presence of objects we hate, is suffering; separation from objects we love, is suffering; not to obtain what we desire, is suffering. Briefly, . . . clinging to existence is suffering.

    "This, O Bhikkhus, is the Noble Truth of the Cause of suffering: Thirst, that leads to rebirth, accompanied by pleasure and lust, finding its delight here and there. This thirst is threefold, namely, thirst for pleasure, thirst for existence, thirst for prosperity.

    "This, O Bhikkhus, is the Noble Truth of the Cessation of suffering: it ceases with the complete cessation of this thirst, – a cessation which consists in the absence of every passion – with the abandoning of this thirst, with the doing away with it, with the deliverance from it, with the destruction of desire.

    "This, O Bhikkhus, is the Noble Truth of the Path which leads to the cessation of suffering: that Holy Eightfold Path, that is to say, Right Belief, Right Aspiration, Right Speech, Right Conduct, Right Means of Livelihood, Right Endeavor, Right Memory, Right Meditation . . .

    "As long, O Bhikkhus, as I did not possess with perfect purity this true knowledge and insight into these four Noble Truths . . . so long, O Bhikkhus, I knew that I had not yet obtained the highest, absolute Sambodhi in the world of men and gods....

    "But since I possessed, O Bhikkhus, with perfect purity this true knowledge and insight into these four Noble Truths . . . then I knew, O Bhikkhus, that I had obtained the highest, universal Sambodhi . . .

    "And this knowledge and insight arose in my mind: The emancipation of my mind cannot be lost; this is my last birth; hence I shall not be born again!"

    II. On What it is Important to Know
    Thus I have heard.

    On certain occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Savatthi in Jetavana monastery in Anathapindika's Park. Now it happened to the venerable Malunkyaputta, [5] being in seclusion and plunged in meditation, that a consideration presented itself to his mind as follows:

    "These theories that the Blessed One has left unexplained, has set aside and rejected – that the world is eternal, that the world is not eternal, that the world is finite, that the world is infinite, that the soul and the body are identical, that the soul is one thing and the body another, that the worthy person exists after death, that the worthy person does not exist after death, that the worthy person both exists and does not exist after death, that the worthy person neither exists nor does not exist after death– these the Blessed One does not explain to me. And the fact that the Blessed One does not explain them to me does not please me nor suit me. Therefore I will draw near to the Blessed One and inquire of him concerning this matter. If the Blessed One will explain them to me, . . . I will lead the religious life under the Blessed One. If the Blessed One will not explain them to me, . . . I will abandon religious training and return to the lower life of a layman."

    Then the venerable Malunkyaputta arose in the evening from his seclusion, and drew near to where the Blessed One was; and having drawn near and greeted the Blessed One, he sat down respectfully at one side. And seated respectfully at one side, the venerable Malunkyaputta spoke to the Blessed One as follows:

    "Reverend Sir, it happened to me, as I was just now in seclusion and plunged in meditation, that a consideration presented itself to my mind, as follows: 'These theories that the Blessed One has left unexplained, has set aside and rejected – that the world is eternal, that the world is not eternal . . . that the worthy person neither exists nor does not exist after death – these the Blessed One does not explain to me. And the fact that the Blessed One does not explain them to me does not please me nor suit me. I will draw near to the Blessed One and inquire of him concerning this matter. If the Blessed One will explain to me, either that the world is eternal, or that the world is not eternal . . . or that the worthy person neither exists nor does not exist after death, in that case I will lead the religious life under the Blessed One. If the Blessed One will not explain to me, either that the world is eternal, or that the world is not eternal . . . or that the worthy person neither exists nor does not exist after death, in that case I will abandon religious training and return to the lower life of a layman.'

    "If the Blessed One knows that the world is eternal, let the Blessed One explain to me that the world is eternal; if the Blessed One knows that the world is not eternal, let the Blessed One explain to me that the world is not eternal. If the Blessed One does not know either that the world is eternal or that the world is not eternal, the only upright thing for one who does not know, or who has not that insight, is to say, 'I do not know; I have not that insight."'

    "Pray Malunkyaputta, did I ever say to you, 'Come, Malunkyaputta, lead the religious life under me, and I will explain to you either that the world is eternal, or that the world is not eternal . . . or that the worthy person neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

    "No, indeed, Reverend Sir."

    "Or did you ever say to me, 'Reverend Sir, I will lead the religious life under the Blessed One, on condition that the Blessed One explain to me either that the world is eternal, or that the world is not eternal . . . or that the worthy person neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

    "No, indeed, Reverend Sir." . . .

    "That being the case, vain man, whom are you so angrily denouncing?

    "Malunkyaputta, any one who should say, 'I will not lead the religious life under the Blessed One until the Blessed One shall explain to me either that the world is eternal. Or that the world is not eternal . . . or that the worthy person neither exists nor does not exist after death'; that person would die, Malunkyaputta, before the Tathagata had ever explained this to him.

    "It is as if, Malunkyaputta, a man had been wounded by an arrow thickly smeared with poison, and his friends and companions, his relatives and kinsfolk, were to procure for him a physician or surgeon; and the sick man were to say, 'I will not have this arrow taken out until I have learned whether the man who wounded me belonged to the warrior caste, or to the Brahmin caste, or to the agricultural caste, or to the menial caste.'

    "Or again he were to say, 'I will not have this arrow taken out until I have learned the name of the man who wounded me, and to what clan he belongs.'

    "Or again he were to say, 'I will not have this arrow taken out until I have learned whether the man who wounded me was tall, or short, or of the middle height.'

    "Or again he were to say, 'I will not have this arrow taken out until I have learned whether the man who wounded me was black, or dusky, or of a yellow skin.'

    "Or again he were to say, 'I will not have this arrow taken out until I have learned whether the man who wounded me was from this or that village, or town, or city.' . . .

    * * *

    "That man would die, Malunkyaputta, without ever having learned this."

    "In exactly the same way, Malunkyaputta, any one who should say, 'I will not lead the religious life under the Blessed One until the Blessed One shall explain to me either that the world is eternal, or that the world is not eternal . . . or that the worthy person neither exists nor does not exist after death'; that person would die, Malunkyaputta, before the Tathagata had ever explained this to him.

    "The religious life, Malunkyaputta, does not depend on the dogma that the world is eternal; nor does the religious life, Malunkyaputta, depend on the dogma that the world is not eternal. Whether the dogma obtain, Malunkyaputta, that the world is eternal, or that the world is not eternal, there still remain birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, misery, grief, and despair, for the extinction of which in the present life I am prescribing . . .

    "Accordingly, Malunkyaputta, bear always in mind what it is that I have not explained, and what it is that I have explained. And what, Malunkyaputta, have I not explained; I have not explained, Malunkyaputta, that the world is eternal; I have not explained that the world is not eternal; I have not explained that the world is finite; I have not explained that the world is infinite; I have not explained that the soul and the body are identical; I have not explained that the soul is one thing and the body another; I have not explained that the worthy person exists after death; I have not explained that the worthy person does not exist after death; I have not explained that the worthy person both exists and does not exist after death; I have not explained that the worthy person neither exists nor does not exist after death. And why, Malunkyaputta, have I not explained this? Because, Malunkyaputta, this profits not, nor has to do with the fundamentals of religion, nor tends to aversion, absence of passion, cessation, quiescence, the supernatural faculties, supreme wisdom, and Nirvana; therefore I have not explained It.

    "And what, Malunkyaputta, have I explained? Misery, Malunkyaputta, have I explained; the origin of misery have I explained; the cessation of misery have I explained; and the path leading to the cessation of misery have I explained. And why, Malunkyaputta, have I explained this? Because, Malunkyaputta, this does profit, has to do with the fundamentals of religion, and tends to aversion, absence of passion, cessation, quiescence, knowledge, supreme wisdom, and Nirvana; therefore have I explained it. Accordingly, Malunkyaputta, bear always in mind what it is that I have not explained, and what it is that I have explained."

    Thus the Blessed One spoke and, delighted, the venerable Malunkyaputta applauded the speech of the Blessed One.

    .
    • Re: why is it so danm hard to

      Fri, February 29, 2008 - 8:12 AM
      this site is ok, at least thers a lot of info here


      www.dharmaweb.org/index.php...nd_Stories


      but it's scatered with these rediculus editorial coments that breakj my concentration ever time .

      ya we get the point, the monk aet the chicken becals he was drunk and he felt hungy for some chicken with his booz , that didn't need explaining, everyone likes chicken and bear, thats not exlusive to china ya shiny headed selibit.

      (to be clear, 90% of the seemiongly nasty stuff i say like "shiny headed selibit." is just toung and cheek humor, my way of avioding huberis so is you hapen to be bald and not geting any, please don't take ofence .... unles you're the guy who wrote those editorials, ... then you can take ofence.)

  • Re: why is it so danm hard to

    Fri, February 29, 2008 - 11:30 AM
    Very difficult to find because of the nature of the tradition and that the original scriptures were translated from sanskrit to Pali, Tibetan, Chinese, or whatever the language of the translator was. Usually this was done with notes regarding word choice or meaning and then later with more full blown commentary. In many cases the original scriptures are lost to time and only versions with commentary remain. One thing that many practitioners value is finding translations that are within their lineage. In this way the sutra is seen as pure to a particular tradition even though it may have been translated and reinterpreted just as many times. Below are some links you may find useful:

    Translation organizations:
    International Buddhist College Library: ibc.ac.th/library/opac/index.php
    Publications of the Sutra Translation Committee of the US and Canada: www.ymba.org/
    Numata Canter: www.numatacenter.com/
    Buddhist Text Translation Society: www.bttsonline.org/

    Other sites and individuals:
    Ron Epstein's work: online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Budd...BDIntro.htm
    mlee's site: www4.bayarea.net/~mtlee/
    Translation procedures: repository.upenn.edu/dissert...9636133/

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